Curse

Coolquest · Feb 26, 2008, 01:32 AM // 01:32

I was testing a hammer build I've been using for a while and I realized how much damage per second I did than the run of the mill Dslash spammer. Using W/mo I took 4 adren skills + my enraged smash, and starting off right away instead of waiting for the D-slash adren to build up, started hitting with beserker stance with FGJ, after about 3 seconds I was spamming enraged smash away, hitting about 80 to 95 damage per second, it seems to be more effective than dragonslash when it comes to dealing out damage.

So, this begs the discussion. Has anyone else ever tried enraged smash? Cause I use it alot and aside from the fact I barely see any other hammer users, the ones I do usually aren't running anything outside of the good old dev hammer set.

Winterclaw · Feb 26, 2008, 01:42 AM // 01:42

So you want to waste 4 skill slots in order to use the skill in the 5th slot? That's a waste of an eilte and in bar slots. BTW, beserker stance is bad.

Then you are giving up 16AL and 30 hp so you can use a weapon that is based around knockdowns, but you aren't going to be able to do a lot of knocking down because you used 4 slots on ade skills, one on a bad elite, and another on a bad stance.

The only people who should use enraged smash are people who are near the beginning of factions and don't have better campiagns or skills to use. I'm sorry but even though you can use it a little in pve, it doesn't make it a good skill.

Oblivious Moose · Feb 26, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

sad, my guild ran a fun gvg night with this concept build, used FGJ!, and BoA. frenzy = little more dps, but more dangerous, since gvg, we stuck with BoA.

after testing out on master of damage, we were hitting nearly 300+ dps.

took it in gvg as said before, and completely slaughtered the other teams that werent heavy on war shutdown.. as our team had NO conditions, and very limited hex's, mainly anti-melee, we were able to pull off 8 flawless, outa 9 wins, and 1 loss, in just a couple of days.

i wouldnt say its great for gvg's, but it sure was hella fun to play around with.

Cherng Butter · Feb 26, 2008, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Who says you have to spend time building up Dragon Slash? FGJ! + Enraging Charge?

jonnieboi05 · Feb 26, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherng Butter

Who says you have to spend time building up Dragon Slash? FGJ! + Enraging Charge?

+enduring harmony? xD

jimmyboveto · Feb 26, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

The thing about d-slash is that it works incredibly well with SY. Thus, when your team needs buffing you keep SY up, and when you just need to deal insane dps you spam D-slash. Also, D-slash takes up one skill slot while enraged smash takes multiple skills to make it effective. I think D-slash wins in terms of usefulness.

Cherng Butter · Feb 26, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnieBoi05

+enduring harmony? xD

Given, but EH doesn't really help you get to full adrenaline :P

draxynnic · Feb 26, 2008, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

So you want to waste 4 skill slots in order to use the skill in the 5th slot? That's a waste of an eilte and in bar slots. BTW, beserker stance is bad.

I've actually done something similar to this myself. The trick is to load up with adrenaline skills that you don't necessarily want to be using as soon as they charge, but are there if you need them. One of those can be a knockdown, so it's there if you need it. Flail and its counter stance Rush can be two more - if you're gaining adrenaline fast enough, Flail is likely to recharge long before it needs to be renewed. Lion's Comfort is a self-heal that can just sit there being fully charged until you need it. Yeti's Smash if you get surrounded, or one of a number of condition-inflicting attacks. Each of which can just sit there fueling Enraged Smash until you actually need them. (And then there's the PvE-only skills...)

Berserker Stance, however, does pretty much NOTHING for the build. It'll break as soon as you use Enraged, and the adrenaline gain boost doesn't stack with the boost from FGJ! Even Flurry might serve you better.

Still, with all that, I do think Dragon Slash wins - it does about the same damage, can be quickly charged with Enraging Charge, and Dragon Slash powers other skills rather than relying on other skills to power it.

Winterclaw · Feb 26, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

The trick is to load up with adrenaline skills that you don't necessarily want to be using as soon as they charge, but are there if you need them.

Is that really the best really use of your bar though? Besides, is it really wise to invest all that space into ade-only skills?

Let me put it to you this way, let's say I wanted to use a skill bar that has 4 signets on it so that I can use symbolic strike. Would you think that's a good idea?

xPIMPx · Feb 26, 2008, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Enraging smash is only req 2 Adrenaline, Symbolic = 4. I used to use this build alot in pve and dont see how its a waste of skill slots tbh. I can still tank yet also dealing high dps. What other skills would i have there instead, probs just other attack skills...

kel77 · Feb 26, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

You said you can reach a max of 95 DPS with that build. while a Dslash can easily reach 130 with sup runes, and constantly keep up SY!

draxynnic · Feb 26, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

W/Me. Healsig, Sunspear/Res Sig, and a couple of Mesmer signets for some specific utility to deal with a particular situation.

It's not exactly a cookie-cutter build, but it's not obviously a bad idea in every possible situation either. I wouldn't do it specifically to power Symbolic Strike, but if for some reason you're carrying the signets anyway, you might as well carry the skill that becomes a non-elite Quivering Blade without the downside to go alongside them.

Enraged Smash does have the advantage of being able to be used twice as often - coupled, of course, with the downside that it takes up the elite slot. However, my point is that there are a number of skills that might be advantageous to have fully charged on your bar without necessarily wanting to use them immediately. Flail... when your last usage is still running. Lion's Comfort... when you don't need the heal just yet. Dwarven Headbutt... that you're keeping in reserve for when you need a hard interrupt. Whirlwind Attack... but you only have one target to hit right now.

You shouldn't be carrying these skills specifically to fuel Enraging Smash - you carry them because they provide utility that you might need, and Enraging means you can have that utility while still being able to dish out a decent amount of damage - instead of just filling those slots with a whole lot of other damaging attack skills.

But yes, as I've said, I think Dragon Slash wins. But you don't necessarily have to use
[skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]Enraging Charge[/skill]

[skill]Steelfang Slash[/skill][skill]Dragon Slash[/skill][skill]Flail[/skill]
(or your variant or alternate cookie-cutter build of choice) every time you wander out of the town gates. Sometimes, a non-cookie-cutter may even serve you better (however rarely).

**Marty Silverblade** · Feb 26, 2008, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

W/Me. Healsig, Sunspear/Res Sig, and a couple of Mesmer signets for some specific utility to deal with a particular situation.

It's not exactly a cookie-cutter build, but it's not obviously a bad idea in every possible situation either. I wouldn't do it specifically to power Symbolic Strike, but if for some reason you're carrying the signets anyway, you might as well carry the skill that becomes a non-elite Quivering Blade without the downside to go alongside them.

Enraged Smash does have the advantage of being able to be used twice as often - coupled, of course, with the downside that it takes up the elite slot. However, my point is that there are a number of skills that might be advantageous to have fully charged on your bar without necessarily wanting to use them immediately. Flail... when your last usage is still running. Lion's Comfort... when you don't need the heal just yet. Dwarven Headbutt... that you're keeping in reserve for when you need a hard interrupt. Whirlwind Attack... but you only have one target to hit right now.

You shouldn't be carrying these skills specifically to fuel Enraging Smash - you carry them because they provide utility that you might need, and Enraging means you can have that utility while still being able to dish out a decent amount of damage - instead of just filling those slots with a whole lot of other damaging attack skills.

But yes, as I've said, I think Dragon Slash wins. But you don't necessarily have to use
[skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]Enraging Charge[/skill]

[skill]Steelfang Slash[/skill][skill]Dragon Slash[/skill][skill]Flail[/skill]
(or your variant or alternate cookie-cutter build of choice) every time you wander out of the town gates. Sometimes, a non-cookie-cutter may even serve you better (however rarely).

The thing with having the utility on the ES bar is that once you use them, which you would have to (otherwise your essentially playing with half a bar), your damage drops significantly, at least until you can recharge them.

The DSlash wins easy here, +42 (assuming a sup rune) on every hit with full utility > +42 on every hit with restrictive use of your utility.

draxynnic · Feb 26, 2008, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

The thing with having the utility on the ES bar is that once you use them, which you would have to (otherwise your essentially playing with half a bar), your damage drops significantly, at least until you can recharge them.

Ah, but the trick is to have skills that you can use when they're called for without necassarily having to use it as soon as they're charged every time. This could include, for instance, a skill that you're carrying to use on a particular target, which may not be so useful against a different target. Besides, it might be possible to squeeze a fifth adrenaline skill in there, allowing one to be used without slowing down the damage. Even with only three skills charged, it doesn't fall that short of the other high-damage hammer skills like Mighty Blow, and you're getting it every one or two swings. That's pretty good single-target damage output compared to, well, pretty much everything but Dragon Slash

.

It does fall short of DS in most if not all situations (which I've said in every post I've made in this thread, so it's not something I need to be persuaded of) but it could be worth experimenting with if you're ever playing in an area where you don't need the cutting-edge builds.

The Meth · Feb 26, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Unlike dragon slash though, Enraged won't fail miserably because you took a single swing at a blocking target and lost all of your adrenaline. I could see it becoming a pretty decent build, you have lots of added pressure along with the rest of your adren skills being ready to knockdown or spike with the rest of your build at will. Berserker stance is a joke though.

draxynnic · Feb 26, 2008, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Unlike dragon slash though, Enraged won't fail miserably because you took a single swing at a blocking target and lost all of your adrenaline. I could see it becoming a pretty decent build, you have lots of added pressure along with the rest of your adren skills being ready to knockdown or spike with the rest of your build at will. Berserker stance is a joke though.

I'd completely forgotten about that aspect of DS... annoying as it is when it happens.

Or when the target just plain dies between the skill activating and the blow landing...

Coolquest · Feb 26, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by kel77

You said you can reach a max of 95 DPS with that build. while a Dslash can easily reach 130 with sup runes, and constantly keep up SY!

I've never tested this build using the max out hammer attribute, I use about 10 hammer mastery when I use an enraged smash build. I'll go test that since I'm on GW right now.

The reason I made this thread was mainly the fact that I feel hammers don't get enough love, they're fantastic weapons and can be quite versatile.

Edit: I tried using this with 16 hammer mastery.
If I'm not using a conjure weapon I dealt about +10 more damage per hit and 150 per crit using sundering.

draxynnic · Feb 26, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Okay.

Using DS with 16 Swordsmanship and 13 Strength on the Master of Damage gives an average DPS of 65 over the 20 seconds that FGJ! was active. This is using a customised icy sword where the insignia condition is not met. Procedure is to charge with Enraging Charge, activate FGJ!, activate Flail (and reactivate when it ends) and unleash a storm of Dragon Slash attacks until Dragon Slash fails to recharge itself. Best damage in a single second (presumably, damage on a critical hit) was 91.

Using ES with 16 Hammer Mastery and 13 Strength on the Master of Damage gives an average DPS of 70 over the 20 seconds that FGJ! was active. This is using a customised shocking hammer where the insignia condition is not met. Procedure is to attack using Mokele Smash with FGJ! active, activate Flail (and reactivate when it ends) and unleash a storm of Enraging Smash attacks until Enraging Smash fails to recharge itself. Four adrenal skills (including Flail) with 4 adrenaline requirements are used to power ES: specifically, Flail, Counter Blow, Rush and Watch Yourself! Best damage in a single second (presumably, damage on a critical hit) was 118.

An experiment was made using Enraging Charge instead of Mokele Smash as the starting skill to see what effect Mokele had. Surprisingly, this gave an average DPS of 72 - suggesting that the initial adrenaline-feeding skill is statistically unimportant over 20 seconds.

It is worth noting here, however, that the Dragon Slash build had three unused skill slots (not including a res slot) which could be used to add utility, enhance the build (adding Enduring Harmony to keep FGJ! going for longer, for instance), or set up a knockdown lock. By contrast, modifying the ES build (short of switching out one 4 adrenaline requirement skill for another with a requirement of 4 or less) or using its adrenal utility skills will lesson the DPS.

(It should also be noted, as I believe Coolquest is a newer player and hence possibly unfamiliar with this, that the base attack rate with a hammer is slightly slower than with a sword or axe - one swing per 1.66 seconds before modifications compared to one per 1.33 - so it may not be performing as well, comparatively speaking, as may be concluded simply by looking at the damage per hit.)

Coolquest · Feb 26, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

(It should also be noted, as I believe Coolquest is a newer player and hence possibly unfamiliar with this, that the base attack rate with a hammer is slightly slower than with a sword or axe - one swing per 1.66 seconds before modifications compared to one per 1.33 - so it may not be performing as well, comparatively speaking, as may be concluded simply by looking at the damage per hit.)

I know about the slower rate of attack for hammers, and
I've probably been playing this game longer than you (2.3 years or so give or take), I just don't play GW quite as much as I used to, so I tend to forget some things

. That and I didn't go very far into the depths of PVP, I enjoy the occasional AB match but for me its mostly exploring, so I understand why some of you might think I'm inexperienced.

I'd also like to mention that in PVP the standard DS build cannot use some of its better abilities (24/7 KD and save yourselves), but than again if you bring a hammer to a PVP match, you bring it for the KD mainly so an enraged smash build wouldn't be as effective.

Edit: going off the idea of a PVE only DS build, I made a PVE only enraged smash build.
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Using this, I can inflict a consistent cracked armor along with an almost infinite stream of enraged smashes.

Savio · Feb 26, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Surprisingly, this gave an average DPS of 72 - suggesting that the initial adrenaline-feeding skill is statistically unimportant over 20 seconds.

Or that random numbers vary?

Quote:

It is worth noting here, however, that the Dragon Slash build had three unused skill slots (not including a res slot) which could be used to add utility, enhance the build (adding Enduring Harmony to keep FGJ! going for longer, for instance), or set up a knockdown lock.

Or increase its DPS.

Quote:

one swing per 1.66 seconds

1.75 seconds.